earlier in the original debate about ;legalizing adult incest.

I would like to define adult further, not simply as over 18/21 year-olds; but also as 'independent' adults; people who are NOT financially/residential- ly dependent on abusers/family-members.And certainly NOT people locked up in basements to their late thirties.

I would also like to define consent further; as 'privately'(no other family members present; also if there is any possibility of abuse the victim can report it to the officer immediately) written and signed consent, without coercion; at a police station. So that there is no room/leverage for abuse.

When it comes to religon, and the Old Testment, you are given orders not to go with your father's wife, or uncover your parent's nakedness. However, on the actual act of incest, Abraham, the father of all tribes, was married to his half sister, Sarah, and had Issac, and the list goes on and on. As far as adult consensual incest goes, as long as they do not have children, and they are in a happy, loving, caring, and supportive relationship, why can't two adults be happy with their partners? A happy relationship is very hard to find. Also if the stigma is taken away to where their extended family doesn't have to be ashamed, there would be support from them to make it last. No hating n laws there. I understand a half sibling or a cousin falling in love. I did reasearch on this, and found many of those relationships do exist, the people are happy together,but are being punished for it every year for not choosing the right one to fall in love with. What if these people had fallen in love with an abusive partner, or anything worse? Instead they fell in love with someone who loves them, and I have always heard you can't help who you fall in love with. Actually, these couples are being treated as homosexuals were treated for many years, having to stay in a closet. There are countries that do accept adult consensual incest, and even allow marriage. So, I give adult consensual a go ahead, and what a person does as long as it's not hurting another person, or themselves should not be illegal.

Some of the comments refer to children, when the column title clearly states adult. Most would agree that involving children is abhorrent and is already criminalized under pedophilia. So those comments should be ignored out of hand. The title also states consensual which is critical. We all know forcing a relationship with anyone is not just a waste of time, but normally backfires. Having children is another item which was mentioned but not part of the original subject. So if two adults (20+ in my opinion) who love each other want to express that love in a physical and intimate way, and who do not want marriage or children, who are we to say no. In fact, deepening their love. It is no wonder the good relationships (adult and consensual) are not known about.

Wasn't talking about child, adult consensual.

1: The scar results from the act occurring non-consensually. I do agree with your point, just not the entire scope and it falls into the "just because it is" argument I stated in my initial argument.

2: Children, never. Legal adults, yes. Some states state as young as 16, and even I am iffy about that but still think it's relatively ok.

3: Just because they are physically stronger doesn't mean it's abuse. Only if they force themselves mentally and/or physically on them.

I think it should be known by both the mother and father. Both can sign the consent form.

I do see your point however about coercion and how the parent/child relationship could present a problem and may rethink my position on the parent child version.

TehV (if this isnt allowed please tell me)

no child nor adolescent should be go through molestation and/or sex by a family member:

1)This results in a psychological scar. That can lead to debilitation resulting from psychological problems in later years. 2)It is too slippery, the child is not independent; underage abuse-victim runaways become illegal prostitutes in most countries in most cases. So the cycle of abuse continues.

3) Under no circumstances will I accept a father/grandfather/older/physically-stronger-cousin/older/physically-stronger-brother using(molestation and/or sex included) someone as NOT qualifying as abuse.

In most U.S states for someone under-eighteen to have a boyfriend that is more than 4 years older is illegal and "legally" counts as abuse from the older party. Exactly four years older requires legal documentation signed by the parents of both sides of the couple for consent.This law applies to non-relatives/family-members; certainly family members should not have less restrictions nor have it easier in anyway.

Abuse is a serious issue; especially/more-still when it comes to cohabitation, coercive older persons and/or dependence.

Counter:

Agreed that if there is inequality in terms of age and physical strength it does not automatically make it abuse(It does by U.S Law if the age gap is more than four years and the younger party is under eighteen(laws differ slightly state by state, there are stricter laws for under 15s)).

It is necessary that the possibility be strictly looked into if there is/exists a wide age/strength-gap; this is a very serious matter and no one should be given a free-pass for 'potential' abuse.

Since incest is around family, and families live-in/share the same place/residence it is all the more important that consent be written,signed and confirmed; since the (possible) abuse victim cannot escape easily under these circumstances.

There should at least be amendments on the basis of cultural freedom/practices. Everyone in the U.S,(excluding Native Americans) is originally from somewhere else(I will not get into the number of generations); most cultures in the world accept marriages between cousins; even the American south is famous for inbred close knit families.

These people do not define marriages between cousins as 'incest' and it is unfair that they be locked up for something that is revolting to them in terms of inbreeding within a nuclear-family-unit; when they don't even think marriages with cousins is incest.

By Christianity; we're all descendants of Adam and Eve and therefore cousins. "Yes we're all cousins, That's what I believe, Because we're children of Adam and Eve... But we're kissin' cousins 'n that'll make it all right. --Elvis Presley song, 1964-^[1]

Then Again half of the U.S.A(21 out of 50 states) has legalized marriages between first cousins-^[2][3]- medical research rebukes exaggerated risk for the progeny of cousins.

1. ^ http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,227514,00.html#ixzz0gLijt69Y
2. ^ http://www.mancouch.com/719637461/more-us-states-allow-marriage-between-first-cousins-than-gay-marriage/
3. ^ http://www.washington.edu/newsroom/news/2002archive/04-02archive/k040302a.html

At the moment public opinion would not support a change in the law and as such it is unlikely that parliament would pass it. There would be immese opposition from religious groups from most organised religions and those who are secular are unlikely to campaign in favour. This means that practically it would be an immense task to legalise adult incest.

Are we sure the confusion doesn't stem from the feelings of taboo this relationship may give from the pressures of society? And what established rules? If it were entered as a purely short term lesson on sex it would be very clear. I've seen reports of some areas that 20% of all people have had incestuous relationships, most of them with brothers and sisters. They practice it for a while then eventually they find someone else just fine. In fact it may be thought that the first person someone experiments with may be their brother, sister and/or cousin. And you can't compare counselors with incest relationships, one's professional, the other isn't. Although I can see the point you're trying to make, I don't see how it applies.

The relationship between two family members is a completely different relationship between sexual partners, the two have very different sets of very complex rules. Mixing the two together will make the relationship even more confusing and harder to manage, the two will have rules that conflict, it will create tensions and emotions that are difficult to manage because there aren't established rules. It will make other relationships more difficult to handle because boundaries between different kinds of relationships are already blurred psychologically and people become confused. This is why in re-evaluation co-counselling, two counsellors cannot have even a social relationship outside meetings in case it affects confidentiality, feelings of safety and quality of counselling.

but any two people mating/getting-married; with similar family medical histories have the same problem.

["I was shocked that I had fallen in love with my first cousin and surprised that this miracle had fallen on me," says Paul. "My only real concern was the medical issue."

Paul, a graduate student in New York City, and Donna, a financial adviser, are just two in a long, flourishing line of kissin' first cousins. Charles Darwin wed his cousin Emma and spawned 10 children, including four brilliant scientists. Albert Einstein's second wife Elsa was his first cousin. Queen Victoria said "I do" to hers. So have millions worldwide. In parts of Saudi Arabia, 39% of all marriages are between first cousins"] -^[1]

The health risk is generally exaggerated.

"That view may have to change. A comprehensive study published last week in the Journal of Genetic Counseling indicates such children run an only slightly higher risk of significant genetic disorders like cystic fibrosis or congenital heart defects--about two percentage points above the average 3% to 4%. Says the study's lead author, Robin Bennett, president-elect of the National Society of Genetic Counselors, which funded the study: "Aside from a thorough medical family history, there is no need to offer any genetic testing on the basis of consanguinity alone."-^[2]

While all religions condemn marriages between parent&child and siblings; the cousins' point is not really made/underlined/there.

1. ^ http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,227514,00.html#ixzz0gLjYUmRx
2. ^ http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,227514,00.html#ixzz0gLkgc35Q

in the original debate; it wasn't simply morals but the increased propensity of getting family illnesses/disorders; when parents are cousins/siblings/family-members.

Incest doesn't have to just be about relationship. There is some data that concludes that brothers and sisters who grow up with each other (not all) have had some sexual interactions with each other. The figures aren't entirely known since it would have to be a self report study and not many people would admit to that, even if remaining anonymous.

You make a very good point though. But what if it were just casual/informative sex with someone who is supposed to be safe?

Imagine this situation: your daughter breaks up with her boyfriend because he cheated on her. Imagine her boyfriend his your son. Now imagine the cold in the air at every single thanksgiving dinner from that day to the day of your death.

Awful.

the point of debatewise (and other debate sites) is that the points should be separate and tackled individually rather than in a great mass which is difficult to address and keep track of.

p.s. legalised is the British spelling so is perfectly acceptable on a UK based site.

As for creating a host of problems; regardless of adult consent: If the couple conceives a child the child is predisposed not only to physical and mental defects, but to social humiliation and ridicule as well. If the two 'adults' cannot get past those simple facts, as well as realizing that love between family members should be alternate to that of finding another person outside the family with which to share marital and sexual relations then their sense of 'love' is grossly convoluted; and mental counseling may be necessary. Another reason follows the ideas of the first, if we allow incest, what is next? The rational minded can craw the dark conclusions. On lighter scales we will have a nation of mentally disabled, and physically disabled people who ‘keep it in the family’, causing the nation to fall further and further into decay and corruption with no sense of right or wrong.

Those accepting of incest obviously have a distorted sense of reality, which is simply an observation on my part. But realizing that as fact let those of us capable of higher thought examine and refute the ‘reasons for’ one by one: 1. Homosexuality was once regarded in the same manner as incest, but is now widely legalised and accepted To compare homosexuality to incest is like comparing apples to turds, they can both be eaten, so let’s eat them. How about no? This is a great example, as some people are actually into that sort of grotesque behavior, such as those who are for incest. You spelled ‘legalised’ wrong, that s should be a z. 2. Adult incest is no more 'unnatural' than abstinence or contraception. Abstinence and contraception are rational and reasonable personal choices. Abstinence is grounded in the desire to save oneself for the right person, fear of sex, or simple lack of impulse and greater self-control exercised by the rest of our oversexed society. Contraception by be ‘unnatural’ in the eyes of those who don’t believe in conventional medicine, but used by those who use them for a specific purpose; and always a responsible one. Again this is a horribly irrational reason. 3. Consenting adult incest is NOT to be confused with child abuse And it isn’t confused with child abuse, so long as the legal age is adhered to. Otherwise it is simply irresponsible to allow our society to fall into that kind of corruption (with adult relatives carrying one sexual or marital relations). 4. Relatives can have corporate health benefits And a person can insure their pets, so let’s condone bestiality too right? How about NO. 5. So, The Nightmare Never Ends? This argument is just strange. ‘The laws in place didn’t protect you’, so let’s permit incest and alter abuse laws? Your correlations may involve the same subject matter, but they are horribly and irrelevantly correlated. Incestuous abuse is worse than simple sexual abuse; it can mentally disturb a person to a much greater extent. Simple consensual incest indicates a mental imbalance amongst both consenting parties. 6. It will decrease the crime rate significantly in the USA Oh, will it now, well why don’t we abolish the laws against prosecuting murderers because sometimes people just need put in their place; or abolish the laws against prosecuting drug dealers, after all they are just trying to make a living. This is an argument that is more to be laughed at than taken seriously. 7. Cultural Sensitivity “Sex in General” is not always frowned upon. We promote sexual behavior at too young of an age in fact; just as we promote it in too old of an age. Take for example these bra’s being made for children around he age of seven, that are padded to make it look like they have little boobies (an atrocity and affirmation to the degeneration of our society). Another example would be all of the ads on television for erectile dysfunction drugs. Once it stops working, leave sleeping dogs to rest, don’t risk impregnating someone at an older which is also proven to cause birth defects. 8. it’s no different than sex with a non-related person Eight is the same as seven. I have wondered thus far about several of the arguments proposed, but this solidifies my example. Is the person who wrote some of these a product or in an incestuous relationship, because the logic and mentality is distorted and mind numbing. 9. Punishment and individual choice You’re absolutely right! We should have a category of FELONY laws that protect the integrity of society. And Incest should be right near the top of that list. 10. single people don't have to miss out on sex I generally try to remain intellectual and eloquent when writing on such important matters, but you leave me choice but to read that and go WTF!!! So you promote infidelity; and state “of child bearing age”, and if they aren’t then what ‘hey no need to wear a condom’? Have you been diddling your granny? If one really feels they have a ‘need that must be fulfilled’ then I would suggest masturbation. 11. Incest Being legal Okay, not commenting because your argument isn’t even outside religious grounds. The Earth was created in seven days too right? And Woman is lesser than man because she had to have one of our ribs to be created, also because she ate that damn apple and now we all have to suffer right? It’s a creation myth fool, myths are meant to be read between the lines. Not knocking the bible, just those who cannot appropriately interpret it.

12. It should be allowed Wow, where do I begin with this one? A family should love one another unless circumstances may and at times do deem otherwise. But the love is a different kind of love than that meant to be between two partners. If a guy falls in love with his stepdaughter and the stepdaughter in love with him is a more complicated question, one that a psychologist should have to evaluate before further action is taken. If the long lost brother and sister discover they are related they need to change the nature of their relationship and get counseling to move beyond the awkwardness of the previous partner relationship they shared. Love may needs labels and restrictions to give some people the sense and knowledge of what is right and wrong, as can be seen by the votes and argument for incest. Your arguments show signs of personality disorder and you might want to get that taken care of for your own benefit my friend. 13. Legalise or decriminalise? Your argument is strange, simply strange. Your final wording an indicator that you’re in an incestuous relationship, or desire to be. As I have mentioned before, mental deficiency, seek counseling. None of your subject heading is even spelled correctly, you expect to be taken seriously? 14. Incest in family can lead to... Seek counseling; and see comment upon ‘reasons for #9’. If your I.Q. isn’t too far down the toilet that is, because it sounds like you come from a long line of incestuous relations. 15. Sex among adult family members is a positive thing. See 14, and follow from there. 16. young men need their mothers to teach them how to make love to a women, I am not even going to read the argument on that heading, it says enough. If you are the son, your mother has taught you something to gratify her own desire and twisted your ideas of love for her own sick pleasure. If you’re the mother, to put it simply shame on you. 17. Interpreting Natural Interpreting restraint: If you get the urge to put a fork in the eye of a person who rants incessantly that may only be natural, but one must exercise restraint, as in the case with sleeping with or marrying a relative. You may think that someone, for arguments sake let’s say a cousin, is a beautiful person inside and out, one you would want to spend the rest of your life with; then find someone with those qualities who isn’t a family member; after all Love is love right? 18. Love is love.. You can't help that. See number seventeen.

19. World started with Incest See number 11. 20. Incest is not Wrong but not right too Okay, you have a hard time spelling, so I won’t even comment on this one other than to say further your education, and get mental help. Ohhh, the ridiculing things that I could say.

21. Single brother & sister can involve to enjoy each steps of being adult. safe from sexual transmitted disease. And one can engage in sexual acts with any partner in a public place and not get STD’s, so why not allow that too? Again another foolish and unintellectual argument not really worth commenting on. 22. I just don't see anything wrong with it. Those of us who wish to maintain moral integrity do care about the rate at which underage children, adolescence, and tens are having sex; we want to stop it, but chaining these little fools in their rooms is also a crime, or some of us would. And I don’t see why people feel the need poison well questions, where they begin with a question and end with a statement but still have a question mark. Should be two different sentences; just like loving relationships between family and nonfamily should be different and separate. Are you one of the two siblings in this ‘freakish’ relationship, your wording not mine, even if you simply condone it, perhaps reevaluating your morals and ethics is in dire need. 23. If the parent found a long lost child I am so tired of writing a rebuttal against people who can’t even spell. No court of law would ever deem you fit to weigh in on a serious legal determination anyway. Thank God, or whatever higher power has kept our naton led by intelligent, moral, and ethical individuals and not uneducated, immoral, unethical crazed wackos who can’t find a normal loving relationship outside the family (even if after meeting 15+ years of being separated. 24. Its just matter of two bodies..let them enjoy..nothing wrong as both are metured... Again another one I won’t bother reading fro several reasons: 1. You can’t spell, and that aggravates me to my very core. 2. Your argument isn’t worth reading as indicated from the heading, you have nothing new to contribute (if you don’t know what that means, I am saying that you have nothing new to add to the debate). 3. I am so over this debate and discussion! The majority of arguments can’t spell. The majority of arguments support unethical or immoral behavior even if between two consenting adults. The laws in place realize and preserve the integrity of this. With all of the real problems in the nation why is this even being addressed? I suppose because the unethical and immoral incestuous families want protection from the law and not prosecution, correct? Well, in short, you don’t deserve protection from the law, and should be penalized for your crime against society; not incarceration unless of course your raping your child or other younger or disabled relative; but to force you into counseling. If that doesn’t help, at least have you sterilized and a notice sent out nationally to all adoption agencies so you can’t have offspring under any circumstances, and random checks throughout your lives to ensure that you haven’t found a way to have children (since mental defects whether physical or purely mental, especially those including lack of ethics and morality, pose a high rate of contagion). Before trying to change the law, learn what a dictionary is and how to use, and not Webster’s, Oxford. Webster’s is garbage, Oxford is scholarly. So there you have it, 24 plus rebuttals and/or reasons against it. If more pop up, I am sure I can counter them, and likely with a reason already provided above. Good Night, Good Morning, and have a wonderful day!